Questions and Food for Thought

[Rebecca Hickman]

Here are some questions to discuss-

-Do you believe the masculine energies and Gods are just as important as the Feminine Energies and Goddesses and should be honored, taught, and worshiped with the same respect?

-Do you believe that energy found outside of yourself, outside your own divine essence, is negative, neutral (can go either way depending on what you do with it), or positive?

-Do you believe that Gods/Goddesses are representations of energies within you or are divine energy sources found outside of the self?

-Do you believe that honoring, teaching, and celebrating only feminine energy and divinity is a good way to balance the overly masculine major religions?

-Do you believe all things come from the Goddess? All things coming from the God? All things come from both the Lord and Lady? Or neither?

-Do you believe its appropriate to teach your personal practices or beliefs of your path as the right or proper way for others?

Explanation of Questions-

I was apart of an organization that was intent on training individuals to become ordained as clergy of the Feminine Divine. From the very beginning I should have known that bias was present, the simple fact that this organization was only ordaining individuals for the Feminine Divine and excluding the Masculine Divine.

We were to research different Goddess and Feminine energies and celebrate and honor different Feminine energies and deities. The only presence of masculine energy was found when the Greenman was honored once or possibly twice in a Sabbath Ritual. And at most Lughnasas Lugh was indeed honored. Although there were some Lughnasa where he was neglected and not even mentioned. They taught individuals that the sun was feminine, the sky was feminine, and even the horns of power were taught as a feminine symbol. Yes there are some Goddess depicted with horns of power such as Hathor. Yes there are some Goddesses associated with the Sun and the Sky. However, primarily these three examples are seen as masculine. Mother Earth and Father Sky. Cernunnos and the Horned God. Lugh and Freyr- Gods of the Sun.

This neglect and prejudice of masculine divinity and energies was defended by this organization as an attempt as balancing energy. They told us that with all the masculine energy in the world teaching and worshiping only Feminine Divinity was their attempt at balancing the masculine and feminine energies in the universe. I saw it as two wrongs don’t make a right.

I believe spreading true balance would be teaching and honoring both and all energies in the Universe. In every pagan culture and faith there were both Gods and Goddesses. Gaia’s husband was Uranus, the God of the Sky. Freyja had a twin brother, Freyr- God of Peace and the Sun. Kali-Ma is an aspect of Parvati who was married to Lord Shiva. In Wicca the Lady shaped the world and the Lord gave it life. I found it so unharmonious and quite frankly disgusting. These people came to learn and grow as spiritual practitioners and they weren’t being taught properly.

They also taught people that any energy that is outside of your own energy is negative. Such as, deities and positive energies are only found within and deities do not exist in a separate place. I believe this to be an individual opinion and ignorant to teach. NeoPaganism and Wicca are very personal and individual paths. What works or is believed by one person isn’t going to work for others. Instead of the priestesses teaching that all energy outside of the self is negative I believe they should have taught that they as individuals believed this to be true but it is an opinion and they personal practice and this taught is not shared universally throughout the path.

-Has anyone else found themselves in a similar situation where clergy or spiritual teachers are teaching their paths as the true path? How do you feel about this?

[John E Fairweather]

I think both.

No matter how hard you try to seperate them, or believe predominantly in one over the other. You need both the mascline and the feminine in order to make life as we know it work. Anything else is artificial and can't sustain itself for long. Basically either side is lost without the other.

John
PS I'll have a photo up soon.

[Rebecca Hickman]

I agree with you. Life is balance. All things are lost without harmony. Divine unity created existence. I find it upsetting that these individuals believed they were creating balance with what they were doing.

Rebecca
PS .. ooohh?? Thats good! :-)

[Matt]

Well, I'll kind of answer the last question first. A great old judge named Learned Hand once said "the spirit of liberty, is the spirit that is not quite sure that it is right". I've never been clergy or a spiritual teacher, but I have often been convinced that I am right and everyone else is wrong, and that attitude has not served me well. I am not big into dualism and find masculine and feminine to be more nuanced. We all have a bit of each in us, and as a layman student of Norse mythology, there is no doubt that Frey and Freya do not represent polar opposites. Freya was a goddess of love and war, and Frey a god of fertility and kingship. In each is the whole.

I do believe the gods and goddesses exist outside us, but not as superhumans, but as something else. I think they also exist inside us.

Finally, I think the gods and goddesses are subject to the same laws of nature that we are and I think the old heathens viewed these laws of nature as Wyrd. Wyrd is not a god or goddess, but a web of relationships that we all participate in. The Gods, the landspirits and other elementals, and us. Everything is connected to everything else.

[Rebecca Hickman]

I agree. I see masculine and feminine and I also see neither. I understand placing gender on divine sources but ultimately its unnecessary. Placing gender places restrictions. As placing rules and dogmatic laws place restrictions on spiritual growth and thought.

I also see divinity outside and within. We ourselves were created by a divine source from divine elements of creation and hold within us a divine spark. This means that we not only find divinity outside of ourselves but also within.

I personally see the many deities of the world as representations of divine characteristics within the human psyche. I believe we hold within ourselves all the love of Aphrodite and all the peace of Freyr. I know this isn't a popular pagan idea but its what I have come to realize for myself. And its interesting to think about the different cultures who invented or discovered the characteristics and personas of the thousands of deities all over the world. I know this thought contradicts popular pagan beliefs but it is what I hold true.

-rebecca

[Jeff]

I was taught very long ago that all things in nature seek a balance. As I see my own pagan spirituality as a spiritual reflection of physical nature I see the same to hold true in spiritual matters. As most have agreed the feminine and the masculine seem to coexist together. As oriental philosophy has long taught us the extreme of one thing also contains within it some element of it's opposite and indeed to an extreme actually becomes its opposite.

As to labeling something feminine or masculine or god or goddess I have long used the general term of Deity in most circumstances. I have always appreciated the concept of Universal Deity and Personal Deity and the idea of Deity being like a multifaceted diamond. Each facet may indeed be unique and one facet may be more desirable and appealing to me when another appeals or speaks to someone else. Yet both facets are in reality part of the same diamond bust simply different faces or for the purposes of polytheism, different personalities or aspects of it.

For example my own personal deities are Cernunnos and Artio(s), one representing masculine and the other feminine, but both known to me to be separate aspects of the same Universal Deity to which we are all connected and a part.

Again this is simply part of my own personal belief system as I continue to discover and experience my own pagan path and I don't mean to imply it is right or correct for anyone else. It is however correct and right for me and I find it often helps others identify and define their own belief system.

As for the question regarding good vs neutral vs negative energies ... again reflecting upon my observations of nature .... nature contains and presents the most incredible, beautiful, powerful and inspiring energy I have experienced. At the same time there are natural events and behaviors that are outright brutal and horrifying for some who experience or observe them. In both extremes however we are seeing and experiencing nature in a raw and pure form. I see neither extreme as being good or bad but simply wild and for me, sacred. I find spiritual energy to be much the same with any positive or negative attachments being in how we utilize it or as our intentions color it.

I don't believe that I desire to balance any other religions whether they be masculine or feminine in their focus. My hope is to simply follow my own path in peace with the hope that I can be a help to others as they stroll along their own path. The last thing I want to do is try to exert control over or impact another religion or spiritual belief system. I'll gladly offer help to those who desire my opinion or who inquire of my own beliefs but we each have to find our own path and in the end find our own identity. That is a unique and personal journey for each of us.

I think I covered most of your questions in my ramblings so I will leave it at that for this beautiful Saturday morning!

Jeff

[Rebecca Hickman]

Thank you for reminding me it was a beautiful Saturday! After I read you last sentence I ran outside and walked the treeline and gathered leaves, sticks, and other treasures spirit left for me. I haven't spent enough time with nature three past few weeks. I'd love to go hiking or camping but its difficult to find individuals willing to accompany you.

I agree with you concerning masculine and feminine energy. I see a great divine consciousness devoid of gender and yet possessing both. I agree that everything contains its opposite. The universe is a giant balancing system of dualities and yet ultimately duality and opposites do not exist, thus the spiritual conundrum. A circle within a circle, with no beginning and never ending.

I also see the energy of the world as sacred and primal. Humans are animals, nature is an animal. Forgive me for my choice in film but to quote a horribly inaccurate and prejudice film, The Craft- "Magic is niether black nor white, it is both because nature is both."

It was just so disappointing to know that people are teaching others that one gender of deity is more powerful or important than the other and that certain forms of energy are good and others bad. But then again it also disappoints me when individuals show up to rituals, parades, and events representing pagans dressed in robes, medieval gowns, fairy wings, vampire teeth, and waving around magical wands. This is 2009, not the 1400's and this isn't a fantasy movie. But that's a rant for another day and another discussion.

I have attended many celebrations and events, listened to many different opinions and paths, and participated in many different rituals. I have over time found my path and my peace. I pray others will as well. And I also pray people will research, look, participate, and learn from many different sources and not hold true to one source and one source only. Bias is afoot.

-Rebecca

[Kushmi]

Take a hard look at Islam, Christianity and other religious sects. It is a constant thread throughout their teachings. Most of the fundamentalist protestant churches and catholics teach that their particular version of Christianity is the only interpretation. In the muslim world, clerics decide what is to be believed out of the Quran. Verses are interperated largely orally so the scriptures are read according to what the Imam decides is good for the congregation on that day. A lot of Protestant Christian churches practise the same type of theology here in this country. Tribal mentality is a genetic thing that is still hard wired into all of Homo Sapiens going back to when the first tribes of up right humanoids ran through the african savannahs trying to defend against predators.

[Rebecca Hickman]

People have their own belief system and they know it to be true to them. It's just almost sickening when people go in search for truth and growth and they hear such bias 'truths". But then again its up to the individual to search elsewhere, if not for more knowledge then at least for a second opinion! It's just sad.

[sluggerrocks]

In Wicca, there is a Goddess and a God. I believe that the Goddess and the God are equal. To me, the Goddess isn't more powerful or more important than the God, and vice versa. I feel that there must be a ballance.
The Roman Catholic Church believe that there is a God, but no Goddess. That makes no sense to me. They also have priest, but no priestesses. That also makes no sense, to me.
In my opinion, males and females are equal. I feel there are some women who would make really good priests in the Roman Catholic Church, but are not allowed to join. To me, I consider that discrimination.
That's one of the reasons I left the church. I believe in equality of both genders.
Sluggerrocks

[Rebecca Hickman]

That is why I left this "organization" I believed in equality. Even while I attended and studied and lectured on Feminine Energies and Deities I would add a section on their male equals/husbands so on... This wasn't fully accepted and even uncomfortable for some. I attended some classes where the woman and priestesses were actually making jokes about men. And one where they were actually condemning masculine deity because they masculine deity they encountered in Christianity was so negative. I was just shocked and disgusted. Its a shame though, most of those individuals were very peaceful and loving- most of the time.

[Mel Veritas]

Lots of questions! You'll find my opinions are probably not the norm for paganfolk but I will cheerily discuss them...
Starting off with...I don't 'believe'. I either know or I think or I don't know. What I have learned comes from my personal experiences with the Gods, and those of the people in my tradition whom I know and trust. So...

1. I've worked in groups where there was a strong female-oriented bias, and while they may work for some folks (usually people who are emmeshed in a lot of personal gender-associated issues) they don't work for me. I work in a coven that honors both the Goddess and the God. Some of us feel a bit more affinity for one, some for the other, but we all know that balance is necessary for us.

2. IMO energy is neutral, until it has been flavored by people, place, or thing. Then it can take on, and hold, whatever flavor has come its way. It can be changed through acts of will, but most of the time there isn't much reason to do that.

3. For me and my tradition, the Gods are personal entities. They are not all one Goddess or God with different aspects, they are not archetypes, they are individuals.

4. Balance is necessary. Other religions are irrelevant. I really don't care what the Christians are doing unless it impacts me directly. I find that when people focus a lot on Christianity and how negative it can be (and it can!) it usually means they have issues with the way they were brought up or interacted with 'christians' in the past. I've been lucky enough to not really have been raised with standard religion, so I managed to avoid that.

5. The way I was taught is that the Goddess manifests Creation, while the God is Potential. Once that Potential becomes manifested by the Creative force, then other potentials can never be manifested. It's a fairly kabbalic POV.

6. I would *never* say that my way is the only way! It's the one that works for me, and for many others, but there are an infinite number of paths to the Gods. My particular path is not suited for most people, and we tend to discourage others from following it unless they have a strong calling.

Okay, now for commentary.

There are thousands of groups and individuals out there who teach all sorts of wacko stuff to beginners. I had one woman tell me that her first teacher told her the only way to learn was to release her 'snake' energies and that translated into sex with the teacher. Another very respected teacher and priestess told me that her first teacher taught her that Wicca came from aliens who gave it that name from the "wicky-wicky" sound they made. Another one was told (by yet a different 'teacher') that she couldn't have the spirit animal that had chosen her because it wasn't the right cultural heritage for the group she was working with. All sorts of weird stuff.

I think it's really important when you are working through a new set of spiritual beliefs that you don't check your brain at the door. If it doesn't sound right, it probably isn't, and it's certainly not right for you. Too many people allow others to assume a mantle of 'spiritual' authority, and let others dictate to them a set of beliefs that may or may not work for them. Instead, I think it's important to listen to what the teachers have to say, but also to question. Why and how did that come about are very good questions. Sometimes the answer will be 'because that's how we do it' and that's okay, as long as you know it and it's acceptable to you. If something doesn't work for you, then obviously it's not the right teacher or group, and you're better off without them. These days there's enough information out there online that it's possible to figure out what does work, even when you're pretty remote.

Okay, off the soapbox now....

Mel